Flexibility and Scaleability, How Jay Bousada Built His Executive Team and Attracted all Rockstars!
Having a strong and reliable team is one of the foundations of a successful organization. Jay Bousada, president and owner of Thrillworks sits down with Jon to talk about the process of hiring the right people and how to get them to work as a team. Join us as we learn how to effectively scale organizations and empower people to make decisions.
“If I really want to be effective, I can start working on myself.”
2:23 – How Jay Bousada started Thrillworks and the challenges he encountered
6:49 – The difference between accountability and responsibility
9:50 – A proven and effective method of hiring people
13:57 – Benefits of making decisions ahead of time
15:33 – How to get your people work as a team
24:48 – Advantages of bringing in the right people and having a strong executive team
26:40 – The Five Dysfunctions of a Team
31:38 – Tips on how to build a strong and reliable executive team
Connect with Jay:
Jon Voigt: Welcome to Agile Living, The Entrepreneur's Journey. The show dedicated to discovering how entrepreneurs and digital leaders are doing more with less. I'm Jon Voigt, your host and CEO of Agility. And we're on a journey across the country to learn from top digital entrepreneurs on how to live a more agile, adaptable, and fulfilling life. Thank you for joining me today and let's dive in.
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Jon Voigt: Today we have Jay Bousada from Thrillworks. We got together earlier this week with a bunch of Agile leaders and started to discuss some really big things that really influence flexibility and scalability. One of the big topics that Jay brought up was building up your executive team, and I jumped on the opportunity to get him on this podcast.
Jon Voigt: Jay, perhaps you can introduce yourself. Talk about what you're up to at Thrillworks, and we can dive into your story about how you built up your team, and I have lots of little things I can throw in there too, for sure, over my ups and downs.
Jay Bousada: Sure. Thanks for having me Jon.
Jon Voigt: For sure.
Jay Bousada: So, Thrillworks is a 18-year old digital marketing agency. I started the company just on my own as a developer and then grew it from there. As a result, as most small businesses do, we ended up bootstrapping the entire company, meaning we didn't hire a leadership team to begin with. We grew one from within.
Jon Voigt: Yep.
Jay Bousada: In the process of doing that, there were things that I just assumed would make a lot of sense, from some of the things that I had read about proper leadership, and so forth, and that is, that grooming individuals from within to take over managerial roles, was the ideal model. Read about Jack Welch doing that with a lot of success.
Jay Bousada: When I decided to start growing the company, and required people overseeing the staff, instead of hiring a leadership team or a managerial team, based on managerial skills, I decided to promote some of the people that we had doing the work. At about the five year mark, we'd hit probably, 10 or 12 people. I had three people on the management team. We were just doing whatever we thought we needed to do to keep the company moving in the right direction, and three years later, we ended up growing exponentially.
Jay Bousada: The next time I stopped to look around at my management team, I had 10 people sitting around the table, that managed 50 different people in the company, and realized I'd made a serious mistake. [inaudible 00:04:06] ratio was off. The team wasn't effective. We weren't getting a whole lot of traction, and we certainly weren't staying focused on any of our goals. So, I pared the team back, thinking I'm just gonna keep the people that I thought were most effective on that team.
Jon Voigt: How did that go, in terms of culture and adjustment for those other people?
Jay Bousada: Some of them took to it really well. They went back to the roles that they had and did a really good job. Others really didn't want to take a step back, as they saw it, so they decided to leave, and that was fine. The problem was, the people that I still had on that team, weren't being scrutinized for leadership based on the qualities of leadership. They were still sitting on this team as a result of being really good at the thing that they did before they became managers of people who did that thing.
Jon Voigt: Right. This reminds me a lot about how everyone talks about how a good sales rep is not a good sales manager, and that whole topic of why managing and doing is very different. You can become a great manager from being a great person at doing, but you have to adjust who you are and how you do things.
Jay Bousada: Yeah, and it takes an entirely different worldview, from an individual when they start managing people who do, versus just the doing. So, one of those worldviews that has to shift is, that you have to be aware of the concept that consciousness comes from the top, so if you're one of the leaders inside a company, and you're overseeing other people, who are doing some work, if you really want to be effective, you need to start focusing on how you're showing up, and less focused on how you're telling other people to be. So, it's that same old adage, "Do as I say, not as I do," except it's do as I do, and ignore what I say, almost.
Jay Bousada: You know, you want people to really start getting their lessons from watching you, and how you act as a team, as opposed to, how you tell them to act as a team. That was the lesson that took me a long time to figure out. So, at our 16th year, when I was looking at the state of the company, I realized that what got us there, was not going to get us to our future goals. So, I decided to make some changes.
Jay Bousada: When I got my own Leadership Coach, there was a lot of things that started to show up that I couldn't see for myself.
Jon Voigt: Right. I've gone through that one too.
Jay Bousada: Yeah, and for the listeners benefit, I think, I could probably mention that we share the same Leadership Coach.
Jon Voigt: Yep.
Jay Bousada: So, some of these lessons have been pressure tested, not just by myself, but I think you've done similar things. And some of those things include just recognizing the difference between accountability and responsibility. And that was a concept, you know, a lot of people use those words interchangeably-
Jon Voigt: Yeah, totally.
Jay Bousada: Yeah. Part of the lessons that I've started to learn by working on myself, as a potential source of the problem, like I said earlier, consciousness comes from the top, so all of my flaws as a leader are going to be vended into the company, and they're gonna show up at scale. When those flaws make their way to the front line, there's 50 different people. So, if I really want to be effective, I can start working on myself, and part of working on myself is distinguishing the difference between accountability and responsibility, where accountability you might be the person who ultimately has to see that a thing gets done, but responsibility means you're the person who actually has to do the thing. And realizing the difference between those two things is really important, because somebody else might be accountable, for something, say like our financial results, but I might be responsible for doing something that actually generates results, even though I'm the CEO, and somebody else might just be, say for example, a director of finance.
Jay Bousada: So, accountability doesn't work in the same sequence as the org structure, where the highest ranking person always holds the accountability, and the responsibility always goes to the lower ranking person. It doesn't have to work that way.
Jon Voigt: Yeah. Yeah. Not that, that's ... I'm sorry.
Jay Bousada: When I started to practice some of these things, what I started to realize is, bootstrapping the company by taking people who are good at their thing, and making them managers, and even if you were teaching those people these lessons, it didn't mean that they were capable of executing on some of these things. So, thankfully for me, the team of six that I had created for the company, the leadership team of six that we had here, around year 16, had four very strong characters in it. And I had to ask two of those characters to take a step back. I had to let one of them go, but the other one took a step back into a role that he was incredibly effective at.
Jon Voigt: Great. Awesome.
Jay Bousada: Yeah. So, that was very fortunate for the company. So, the person that I had to let go off the leadership team was filling a role that I had had almost zero success in filling. That was the person that would oversee some of the technology here at the company, so the bare elements, some of our quality assurance tests, and some of the production work. And I had probably put four or five different people in that seat over the 16 years leading up to that moment. So, when I let that person go, I left that seat vacant, which I thought was a least, worst evil, because I had had no success putting the right person in that seat, and I was determined to go on a hunt to find the right person.
Jay Bousada: One of the techniques that I stumbled across in a book called, Who, which is all about hiring A-level players, talked about mining your network and asking people in your network, who they know that is awesome at the thing that they do. One of the things I started to do was to mine my network, and ask those people who they knew that I might want to talk to. It didn't take very long for a certain individual's name to just show up. I contacted that person, asked them if they would come and have a conversation with me. That conversation led to about four conversations, and the next thing you know, an offer was being given and that person, thankfully, joined the company. Now, that process, as much as it sounds short, took about 18 months.
Jon Voigt: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Who, is the second version of Topgrading, right? So that's a pretty rigorous process, but it really does bring in amazing people.
Jay Bousada: Yeah. And what made this individual amazing, is that unlike some of the people that I had on my team, who I knew really well and I understood their philosophies, because I'd been working with them for years, hence the benefit of promoting from within, this individual who I'm trying to parachute in, which was something different for us, it just required a whole series of conversations, in order to uncover his philosophy, and make sure it aligned with our philosophy. Because I could certainly see that he had the skills that I didn't have in-house, so there was no opportunity to promote that person. But at the same time, figuring out what their philosophy is, is in some ways, a lot more difficult, that figuring out if they've got the skill to do the job.
Jon Voigt: Right. Right.
Jay Bousada: Anyway, as that person came onboard, suddenly I was able to say to that person, "Hey, do you happen to know anybody who can actually take over more of a tactical role? They'll be reporting to you." Within 24 hours, that person had a name for me, and within 48 hours we were interviewing this person, and I think it was in under 96 hours, we had had an offer go out to that person.
Jon Voigt: Wow. That's crazy.
Jay Bousada: The point here being, when you bring in the right people, who know how to do-
Jay Bousada: When you bring in the right people who know how to do the right kind of work, they also bring a network of really talented people with them, and suddenly things started to get easy. As great as that sounds, when you've spent 16 or 18 years making life hard on yourself by trying to accomplish things with, in some cases, the wrong people, you don't know what to do with things and you tend to doubt easy.
Jon Voigt: Right, it doesn't feel right.
Jay Bousada: Exactly.
Jon Voigt: Yeah.
Jay Bousada: There's an ongoing battle internally with me when now that I have a management team that I've put in place that is a whole lot more effective. When it gets easy, I catch myself wondering what's wrong.
Jon Voigt: Yeah. What are we missing? What's happening that I don't see or am I going to get surprised by something?
Jay Bousada: Exactly.
Jon Voigt: Yeah, yeah.
Jay Bousada: Exactly.
Jon Voigt: It's also a loss of control, right? Because the whole great thing about an executive team is, they can shield you from so many things and take so many things off you that allows you to be more flexible and focus more on the important things that you need to do. But to do that, you have to let go of all these things that maybe you used to get pulled into because somebody in that position wasn't as good as the new people.
Jon Voigt: You'd be pulled into things that you didn't need to be, but you were aware of what was going on. Now when you have these competent people, they shield you, which is great, but you lose that control and you lose that awareness of maybe what's going on, and if you have the right people, that's amazing. If you have the wrong people, that's scary. But really that's the end goal, but it's just a big shift. Especially since you've been running your business for so long and you're now into that type of scenario now.
Jay Bousada: Yeah. I mean, it's almost like you don't know what to do with the extra time that you ended up having because you're not fighting fires anymore. There's a multi gain here. I think this was one of the topics that we were discussing at the dinner that you referenced earlier in the conversation today.
Jay Bousada: You're so used to fighting fires and having so little time to do your actual job that when those fires aren't burning, because the right decisions are being made ahead of time, not only do you get benefit from a profitability standpoint and client satisfaction standpoint, and even happier team, happier staff. But now you have exponential gains in the matter of time that you have to do your job. By doing my job as a CEO, I can avoid leading us down paths that either start a fire or lead to additional challenges that we don't need.
Jay Bousada: You find yourself in this foreign land, if you will, with time on your hands to do the right job. You get a chance to do that thing, whatever job you weren't doing before, and the entire thing starts to become easy. It's strange. It's great, of course, but at the same time, you're again, so used to having a different way that takes some adjusting.
Jon Voigt: Yeah.
Jay Bousada: One of the things ...
Jon Voigt: I'm sorry, go ahead.
Jay Bousada: Sorry. One of the things that that ended up surfacing as soon as we started getting the management team into a better state of affairs was that we had shifted the problem or we noticed the problem now shifted from almost a well-intended, but dysfunctional, management team to a group of individuals that were working really hard inside the organization, but they themselves weren't acting like a team.
Jay Bousada: I often use the analogy of a hockey team instead of acting like one team on the ice, we were five well-intended players on the ice. Six if you count the goalie. But our efforts had to shift from figuring out how to do the thing that the individual teams we're struggling with, and now there was a lot of need to put some attention on how we were going to get the individuals to start acting like a team.
Jay Bousada: I think these are where the real work happens inside an organization. There's a lot that you can draw from sports analogies. I mean, it's no accident that I use a hockey team or you can use any team for that matter. But it's easy for any entrepreneur or it's easy for a manager who's come up through the ranks to jump in and start helping out by doing the thing that they used to do, when that need arises because something's gone wrong or we need extra horsepower or something like that. But I'll try to remind my team that you never see a coach get on the field and say to the quarterback, "Give me the football, I'll throw this play because you seem to be tired," or, "You don't seem to have what it takes to get the job done today."
Jay Bousada: That doesn't happen. When we do that, we failed the team. If we have to keep doing that, maybe we got the wrong people on the team, but if we catch ourselves doing that, we've got to figure out why do we have to keep doing that. Have we not given the latitude to the team members to do what they need to do? Have we not given them the right kind of coaching? But I find that it's just something that is a habit that you really have to figure out how to get rid of because it doesn't help the team.
Jon Voigt: I wonder how much of that was there before, but maybe you just didn't have the capacity or the time to see it as well, right? Because you were so worried about each individual role and whether it was actually performing. Maybe the teams weren't working as well as they used to.
Jay Bousada: Yeah. It's entirely possible that we just didn't have the bandwidth to notice that the team may not have been working like a team.
Jon Voigt: Yeah.
Jay Bousada: I think one of the things that started to surface in addition to the fact that we had a lot of hardworking people that may not have understood how to work together as a team was that that concept isn't something that necessarily comes naturally to everybody. By that I mean, just throwing people into an environment that is a team environment. Let's think that sports analogy again. If I have a high performing team of hockey players and I swap one of them out with somebody who maybe isn't predisposed to being on a team, they can't just adopt those skills because they have the knowledge. We want them to act like a team.
Jay Bousada: I mean, there are certain people who just aren't cut out for it. There's an expression that I've heard my coach use often, that recruiting trumps training, and what he means by that is that finding the right individuals that suit not just the culture, and don't just have the skills, but have the capacity to operate in the environment are super critical. We started to dig into that whole concept of recruiting trumps training by looking for people who wanted to win more than I wanted them to want to win.
Jon Voigt: Right, right.
Jay Bousada: You can see that I'm really successful with sports teams, right? The players themselves so desperately want to win. All the coach really has to do, and not to take anything away from very successful coaches, but all the coach has to do is create a repeatable formula for success, like a repeatable process.
Jay Bousada: Find the right people who want to win and put them into that process. That process doesn't mean it's autopilot. It's not some kind of assembly line. There's a whole lot of positive pressure that you have to put on people in that scenario. But using that same model when we started hiring, after we had the right leadership team in place, we really saw a difference in the kind of people that we were shortlisting, and we were seeing the difference in how the teams were performing.
Jay Bousada: When you bring a person in who's really determined to [crosstalk 00:20:18] all the team members, which includes pushing the other team members because oftentimes the leadership team is nowhere near the action. In our world, if we're building an enterprise level website or if we're building an APP, the team that's working on this really is responsible for the success of it, because by the time that I might find out that there's a problem, it's several days or weeks or iterations in, that's the worst time. You don't want to try to start shifting the tide on a game after you realize that you're losing 47 to nothing.
Jon Voigt: Right, right, right. It's amazing how, we think about, "If I had the right executive team, it would take so much off me," but then you get some new things on you, which is, how do you make them work as a team more effectively? The problem shifted a little bit. It's maybe not as freeing as one might think. Is that a good summary? Or is it just a different type of challenge?
Jay Bousada: I think without the right kind of leadership team ... I mean, which entrepreneur isn't used to working hard? You just mistake activity with accomplishment, and you don't realize that the kind of work that you're doing is not the work that you should be doing as a CEO or a president or whatever your role happens to be.
Jay Bousada: When you bring in the right leadership team and they're able to, like I said, prevent the fire from starting in the first place and create the future gains where your team is well lined up to tackle the next more complicated thing, and everybody is working, again, not only as a team but bringing their full capacity and owning their full authority on the job.
Jay Bousada: You suddenly have time to do the stuff that you should have been doing all along. Becoming territorial about, "I need to do this stuff and if something tries to steal back or burglar this time away from me too, the way it used to," you need to get very territorial and say, "I can't let that happen." Something is failing with the leadership team. The right answer is not for me to get sucked back in.
Jon Voigt: Right, right.
Jay Bousada: The greatest part about the early days of having a strong leadership team is that freeing feeling and if you can remember what that feeling feels like, where it's like, "Oh my God, I can actually start accomplishing some of those things that have been on the backfire, some of those things that I just always aspired to do." It's so addictive that you know you can really get some momentum if you allow yourself to just insist on having that time.
Jay Bousada: If your team starts depriving you of that time again, then there might be something wrong with the team that you've assembled, or you might just be resurrecting old habits that ... Because old habits do die hard. Again, one of the great things that I've heard from my coach is that it's not hard getting new ideas in, it's hard getting the old habits and old ideas out. When you start resorting to old techniques, you've got to stop quickly, and take-
Jon Voigt: Yeah, yeah, catch those.
Jay Bousada: Yeah.
Jon Voigt: One thing that triggered in me was this whole idea of being able to move on to some of those things you have always wanted to, or had in the list or whatnot. I'd love to talk about this for a second because I have a huge list of things I want to do, and our executive team is not yet where I want it to be. We need to fill a couple more positions, and we'll be a lot more ...
Jon Voigt: ... we need to fill a couple more positions, and we'll be a lot more productive once we do. But once I fill those positions and everything's humming along, and people are taking some of those things off me, what prevents you from just going to that list and just saying, "Okay, now we have to do all this stuff as well." And now that just puts too much on the executive team and too much back on yourself? Because there is a limit still, but with an executive team you might feel that you can do so much more, and you just throw more on it, and then you just choke out the whole team. Have you ran into that, or is that a worry that you have? 'Cause I can see that as being something that I might get sucked into if I had everyone on my executive team, and they took all the stuff off me, I'm like, "Wow, I could just do so much more now."
Jay Bousada: Yeah, and this is a great part of having a strong executive team. They won't let you do that.
Jon Voigt: Okay, awesome. Awesome, love it.
Jay Bousada: You know, the benefits aren't just one directional, meaning it's not like the benefits of a strong team just cascade down inside an organization, they actually work upwards as well too. So, I'm going to keep going back to some sports analogies; if you've got a really, a good quarterback and a good running back, the running back can go over to the quarterback - and in this analogy obviously the CEO might be the quarterback - he might say to him, you know, "Hey, I need you to stop doing this thing, because when you do this other bad thing happens, so I need you to stop doing that." And they can do that in the moment, while the play is unfolding. They don't need to go to the sidelines and necessarily have somebody else tell them that. So you don't need a board of directors to step in to start controlling, maybe a bad idea or a CEO who's trying to put too much on the team's plate. A really strong team can actually push back right away, in the moment, and keep that person focused, so the whole management team starts working more effectively.
Jon Voigt: And I guess the people that you bring in externally that haven't been with you for a long time may actually be stronger at that push back a little bit too, right? Because when you work with someone for a long time it's often, you know, people get a little bit softer with each other. But with someone new, like what you said when you brought that new CTO or Chief of Technology or whatever that role was to run the production side, that person was new so they can push back, because they're used to the way it should be where they're not being pummeled with stuff.
Jay Bousada: Yeah, exactly. That's a characteristic you've gotta look for too. There's a great series of books written by an author named Patrick Lencioni. And one of them is called The Five Dysfunctions of a Team.
Jon Voigt: Yeah, love it.
Jay Bousada: Yeah no, for anyone who hasn't read it, it might seem odd to write a book about the dysfunctions instead of ... you know, you're going to be pointing out everything that's typically wrong with a team, is a weird way to go about a book. Most books are written by saying, "Here's how you should do things." The problem with that if you've never seen success, you've never experienced that kind of success, then all you're familiar with is the dysfunctions.
Jon Voigt: Yes.
Jay Bousada: When Patrick Lencioni wrote the book he wrote it in a way so that people could relate to the material. And the general theory behind the book is, if you want to get results from your team you need to create a really strong team that's willing to push back on one another, to your point. So when you're hiring somebody to join any role in the organization, but most critically, if they're joining your management/leadership team, they need to be comfortable getting into conflict, and the positive kind of conflict. And that conflict can look a lot like, "Hey, I like you too much to let you make that stupid mistake boss. You can't do that today." Or, "That's not the way that we're going to go about it," or "I understand why you want to do that, but I've gotta voice the fact that I disagree." And hold to it, not just when-
Jon Voigt: Not just say it, but actually push it a little, yeah.
Jay Bousada: Exactly. And what works best is when my team really doesn't shy away from the concept of getting into conflict. So just saying, "Yeah, I don't necessarily agree with that," isn't conflict. When the debate gets a little more heated, or when you see somebody failing to live up to a commitment and you can actually put some pressure on them to say, "Hey, I can't let you make that mistake again," right? Or, "When you do that, you trip up the whole team, and we need to hold you accountable to stop doing that. You can ask us for some help if you don't know how to stop, but we're not gonna let you do it anymore, and I know it's gonna make us all uncomfortable when we call you on it."
Jay Bousada: So if you're bringing somebody in from the outside that you don't have any kind of first hand experience at working with, reference checks from people who have worked with that person give you a really good source of figuring out, how does this person handle conflict? Because you want somebody who kind of leans into conflict, not shies away from it, because that's where the real pop happens.
Jon Voigt: Awesome, I love that. I love that. Awesome. So really, building up that executive team has completely transformed your business when you got the right team in place. It's made you able to focus on the right things, and focus on making the team work better as a team and not worry about the little finicky little things. Is there any other benefits that you've got from it, or anything that can sell... I think most people are sold on wanting to be build an executive team, it's just such a scary thing to do, because you also lose control. But that's good control that you're giving out.
Jay Bousada: Yeah, I think this might sound silly, but when you bring the right people in, and they start doing the right things so your time isn't burglared, you're not drawn into fires anymore. I found myself almost, in the early days, starting to make new excuses or creating new obstacles to avoid doing that job that I was getting away without having to do before. So it's a way of, by not having a strong leadership team, by not putting yourself through the specific intention of building the right people inside your company, you get to hide out from your real responsibilities. 'Cause it's a whole lot easier coming in here and fighting a fire, and feeling smart, and looking smart in front of somebody else because you came up with the solution.
Jon Voigt: Yeah for sure.
Jay Bousada: And going off feeling accomplished because you've made two or three widgets, or solved two or three fires today, that's a whole lot easier than coming in here and holding the company to the vision that you have for the company. Because that's not as easy to measure. It's not going to make you popular, a lot of cases. And if you don't have a strong leadership team then you don't really have time to do the kind of things that top leadership needs to do, so you get to hide out. So you get the gains, staying focused on the vision, and driving toward that, when you have a strong leadership team. But let's not get ourselves, you know, "I got to hide out for a lot of years, because I chose not to build a strong leadership team."
Jon Voigt: And it helps your ego, you're solving problems and all these things, but you're not really getting to where you want to go, and you're in more control. So it's hard to change, it's a big shift. If the audience, people listening, if they wanted to get out there and start ... I imagine most of them have started in some capacity building up their executive team, but if they're not happy with it, or they could improve it, what would be the one tip that you could give them to either get started, or to perfect, or to optimize one that they already feel is working really well?
Jay Bousada: I think getting religious about the role that you're trying to fill, and not getting caught up in the loyalty that you have to somebody that you care about. Because it's just so easy to say, "Well, I can work harder to make this relationship work. I really like this person, and I think that somewhere deep inside them they have this skill in them." That may be true, but the business actually has very immediate and timely needs, and if that person needs five years to develop that skill, maybe you can keep them inside the organization somewhere, and help them develop that skill along the five years, but you can't have the company or the role wait five years. And you're not being a leader if you're putting off what the company needs, because you're loyal to the individual over the role.
Jon Voigt: Yeah, right. Right. Okay. Awesome, awesome. Well Jay, this has been great. I know I've gone up and down with building up my executive team, and with the big changes in our business this year I'm re looking at a couple of positions, so super helpful. And it's a little scary because you know that, once you kind of build it out, then you've gotta worry about making them all work really well together, but I think the wins massively outweigh any extra work or change in work that has to happen. And it sounds like you've had some pretty good success, so congrats on that side. If people wanted to reach out to you and find out more information, how would they reach you?
Jay Bousada: They can reach me through our website, at thrillworks.com. Or they can reach out directly to me at my personal email at firstname.lastname@example.org. All of our contact details are also on that website that I just referenced, so they can get our phone numbers off there too, if they want to reach out to me. But I really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you about this Jon, thank you.
Jon Voigt: Yeah, yeah, no for sure, I think it's a huge topic that people are always trying to work towards, and I really do believe if you get the right people in place the amount you can do ... you know, one of our big concepts here is do more with less, right? And you might argue that building an executive team isn't doing it with less, but you're being able to do more with your team, with less intervention from yourself. And there's no way to scale a business without building executive teams, you really need that executive team to be able to watch each area of the business. So it's just a huge topic, and something that every entrepreneur has to go through at some point. So thank you so much, I really appreciate it. And looking forward to seeing you next time I'm in town.
Jay Bousada: Thanks a lot Jon.
Jon Voigt: Awesome. Thanks a lot everyone for spending some time with us today. You've just taken the first step towards a more fulfilling life. To continue the journey, I'd love for you to subscribe to my podcast, that way you won't miss out on the smallest little detail that could make the biggest difference in your life. You can also join our community on Facebook, we've just started a community there of digital leaders that want to do more with less. And all you have to do is go to Facebook and type in the search bar, "the Agile Community" and join the group there. If you want to hear more about this topic, or have a topic of your own, please don't hesitate to reach out to me. I love talking about this stuff, happy to talk about it offline as well. So now, let's get out there and make a difference, by doing more with less. Until next week, this is Jon saying, "Stay agile."